Transcript - Quarterly Hearing - Minister for Infrastructure - 24 September 2025

Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel

Quarterly Hearing

Witness: The Minister for Infrastructure

Wednesday, 24th September 2025

Panel:

Deputy H.L. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair) Deputy D.J. Warr of St. Helier South

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary

Witnesses:

Connétable A.N. Jehan of St. John - The Minister for Infrastructure

Mr. T. Dodd - Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure

Mr. T. Daniels - Director, Property Holdings

Mr. J. Littlewood - Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport)

[10:30]

Deputy H.L. Jeune of St. John , St. Lawrence and Trinity (Chair):

Welcome to this quarterly hearing of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel. Today is 24th September 2025 and this is a hearing with the Minister for Infrastructure. I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following. This hearing will be filmed and streamed live. The recording and transcript will be published afterwards on the States Assembly website. Please ensure that all electronic devices, including mobile phones, should be switched off or into silence. I would like to ask that members of the public who have joined us in the room today to not interfere in the proceedings and as soon as the hearing is closed please leave quietly. We will begin with the introductions. So my name is Deputy Hilary Jeune and I am the Chair of the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel.

Deputy D.J. Warr of St. Helier South : I am Deputy David Warr , panel member.

Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary : Constable David Johnson , also panel member.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Constable Andy Jehan , Minister for Infrastructure.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):

John Littlewood, Head of Technical Support Services, Projects for Ops and Transport.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Tristen Dodd, Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure.

Director, Property Holdings:

Tim Daniels, Director of Property Holdings.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. Minister, we have 2 hours for this hearing and we have a lot of questions to get through. I will start around some questions related to the upcoming potential budget and funding for 2026. So the panel understands that there is no new departmental business plan to be published for 2026. Could you, therefore, clarify which outstanding objectives for your 2025 business plan the department intends to carry forward and implement in 2026?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So work continues. Clearly, it is a challenge for us in terms of the budget, as it is for all departments. Rising costs makes life very difficult. We have some £90 million worth of expenditure planned for next year so we are working hard, as we have discussed in the past, on ensuring we have drainage for new properties and for existing properties to join on. So that work is under way. Our roads programme will continue. Really, a lot of it is business as usual, so that is where our priorities are in terms of business as usual. We have other work that we are exploring and clearly Fort Regent is a key part of our remit so that is a significant investment for us.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

For example, when we are looking at the business departmental plan, the car parking plan is there. Will you be developing a new car parking plan shortly?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes. So the team are working hard on the car parking plan, both on our existing estate and the potential for additional car parking. Both myself and my Assistant Minister firmly believe that we need to provide additional parking for the Parish of St. Helier for people who are either resident or visiting the parish. It is identifying a site and then going through planning for that. So work continues on that. We have done a lot of work identifying the changes in car park requirements. So with the introduction of electric vehicles that brings us 2 challenges. Weight is one challenge and fire is another challenge. The team have done a huge amount of work on that. We have invested significantly this year in refurbishing Pier Road car park and the team continue to work hard in that area.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :  

So when will we see this plan and will that then include this potential new car park? Are we seeing that before the end of the political term?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

I think in terms of the plan, because it is always about site acquisition, so publishing the plan leaves you a fortune to hostage; there will be ransom strips. But we are looking at developments and developers that we can work with to try and redistribute parking. We think that the parking needs to be around the ring road to reduce the  amount of through traffic through town, and also for convenience, but also there are areas of St. Helier which are underserved by parking, so we would look to redress that. Then there are other key opportunity sites such as the waterfront development, which in order to unlock the International Finance Centre also need to provide 500 parking spaces, and it is how do you do that without creating gridlock in some of the key junctions around that. So there are proposals in train for that but they do rely on land acquisition.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Talking about car parking spaces, one of the issues around, which I have a real bugbear about, is the Esplanade. Right now it is a building site and it is owned by the J.D.C. (Jersey Development Company), which is an A.L.O. (arm's length organisation). Why are we not forcing the J.D.C. to use that as a car park in the meantime, to coin a phrase?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So we do not have any control over the States of Jersey Development Company. They report to the Minister for Treasury and Resources. So we have seen vehicles parking in the Esplanade in recent times and there are a number of sites around St. Helier that we would be quite keen to see utilised.

Deputy D.J. Warr : But this is a quick win.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, it can be seen as a quick win but it is about what are the unintended consequences. So it is about working with our partners to get to where we want to get to.

Deputy D.J. Warr : Okay.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Just to add to the Minister's points there, we are in dialogue with the Jersey Development Company. They need lay-down areas for their various construction phases but they have spoken to us about how that would work and how they will preserve the 500 spaces that are on that site at the moment, you know, within the area, because we have Les Jardins. So there has been no reduction in capacity around there. In fact, there has been an increase, you could argue, because there is some parking underneath some of the new buildings there, et cetera, and you have the waterfront car park and also the terminal ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

But it is not so much about reduction ...

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: ... car park is available to use as well.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

It is not so much about reduction. It is about location. You know, location, location, location. Where these parking spaces are is more critical than how many there are.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

At present, though, we generally have capacity in our existing car park stock at Pier Road, at Sand Street, at Patriotic Street. Obviously, there are peak demand times of the year, such as Christmas, where the infrastructure does struggle to meet demand, but that is always an issue with the efficient provision of transport infrastructure is those peak times. How much overcapacity do you carry which is not required the rest of the year?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So just moving on from that, Minister, you were saying that you and the Assistant Minister feel that there needs to be a new car park in town. Is that more for residents rather than for commuters?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

A combination. I think we are very keen to get people to use the buses and/or active transport, but I think you have to give people a choice. So speaking personally, I do not cycle as often as I should but I do get the bus quite frequently. But I drive more regularly than I perhaps should and so ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

But the Director of Transport just said that there is capacity in the current car park so ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, if you look at the development that is happening in and around St. Helier , there is significant development taking place. So we need to look forward rather than thinking we have enough capacity for what we have today. There are hundreds of apartments and homes being built ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So it will be more residential?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

... at the moment and so therefore we need to make sure that we continue to grow and not constrain people. We need to give people choice.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Could I just add a little bit to that? In terms of the long-term planning that we are undertaking under the Minister's direction, what we have to look at is at some point we are going to have to retire car parks. We can keep them going but they become increasingly less fit for purpose. Many of the car parks are coming up to their 60th birthday and they will not go on for ever. So what we need to look at is where the parking needs will be in future. The north of town is one area which does not have a lot of public parking available, so it is a redistribution of the parking. It is making sure it is on the ring road but at the same time trying to produce that additional capacity so you could retire, repurpose or reconstruct other car parking sites that we already have. So that has to be tied into it.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. Moving on, now that the 2026 budget has been published, can you set out the full list of projects your department intends to deliver in 2026?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not have a ... I can share that list with you.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

If you can, that would be good. Thank you.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have mentioned some of the work we are doing on drainage. You can go online and see our highways maintenance for the next 5 years. So we publish that ... I think 6 years are published at the moment. So you can see where we intend to do works, certainly on the highway. We can share that list with you, but I do not have the list in front of me this morning.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is there any workstreams that were previously scheduled for 2026 that has now been deferred or withdrawn?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No. I think the key challenge for us was around the drainage because houses are coming out of the ground, literally coming out of the ground, and we need to make sure that we can put those houses online as soon as they are completed rather than wait for the drainage infrastructure to be in place. So I am confident that we can deliver that in all the areas we are charged with doing.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

The budget sets out overall government savings targets but does not identify specific savings for infrastructure. Can you clarify whether your department is expected to deliver savings under this budget and, if so, what form would those take?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, we are expected to deliver savings, just like every other part of the organisation. I am pleased to say that in the last 18 months we have reduced our reliance on external consultants significantly. We have some very talented people in and around the department and I think I have spoken about that in this forum before. But, for example, when we need an independent road safety audit, we cannot do that ourselves because it would not be very independent, so we have a reliance on some consultants. When we are doing work on our energy from waste plant, there are times when we need to bring in specialists because we only do something once a year. So people are not specialists in that function, although we have some very capable people in that area. So we will still need to use external resource, but our reliance on that has heavily been reduced. We continue to look for efficiencies. So, for example, one thing that I get quite upset about is the fact that we spend in the region of £200,000 a year on what are called banksmen, so people who have to stand at the

junction of roadworks because the public ignore signs that say: "Road closed" or "No through road". If you ignore a road closed sign you are liable to a fine of up to I think it is £1,000.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: I cannot remember but it is a heavy fine.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

A significant fine, but I cannot remember the last time anybody was fined for ignoring a road closed sign. I would much prefer us have those junctions policed and a couple of fines issued so that we re-educate the public and we could spend that £200,000 on tarmac rather than on people. That is an example of where we could be more efficient but safety of the public and our staff and our contractors is the priority.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Have you got a piece of work that goes through that where you have identified an example for us but it is more of a detailed piece of work on efficiencies?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The team are constantly looking at where we can make efficiencies. I think it is almost like a death by 1,000 cuts, particularly within Infrastructure ... and other departments but Infrastructure have been under pressure for a long time. We can see that in the investment we need to make within Infrastructure because we have not made the investment. A lot of our costs are not staff costs. So we spend more money on non-staff items than we do on staff items and, therefore, when we see inflation increasing and we are only getting an R.P.I. (Retail Price Index) increase in allowances, it becomes a wider gap. So the team are well versed in becoming efficient and ensuring they deliver what they can. So that is why the priority is on safety and legal requirements. So, for example, within Property Holdings we have to do electrical tests and we have to do legionella testing. Those are legal requirements. So those requirements were at the front of the queue. Fire safety is at the front of the queue. There are lots of things we would like to do that we cannot do because we have to prioritise.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I think moving on then from that, we know that part of the budget there is going to be ... presents Investing in Jersey programme and also this Capital Investment Fund. At the moment it says in the budget it will be only included in principle and then its establishment will depend on a further proposition to be brought to the States Assembly once the budget has been approved. Could you, Minister, explain a bit of your understanding of how this process will work in practice, how to set it up and how it will be administered in practice?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it does not matter who is in the States Assembly or in Government, we need to look much further ahead as an Island in terms of what are the Island's requirements. So we have a lot of our estate is ... we have just heard of car parks that are 60 years old. They do not last for ever, although they appear to last longer than some of our structures. So we have to think forward. As regulations changed, some of our buildings are not fit for purpose. We are sat in a building today which is very much part of our heritage.

[10:45]

Last week I was in Normandy and sat in their Parliament and it was an absolute pleasure to be sat there at a desk with power. So we need to look forward at what we need. Our sports estate, we are delighted that Oakfield is up and running. It is going to be opened in the next 10 days' time. Hosted the Jets' first game on Saturday and really positive feedback from that. But we cannot stop. Les Quennevais, last year we had lots of interruption at Les Quennevais with issues with the roof, et cetera, so we know that we are going to have to invest money in these parts of our infrastructure. If we look at the roads, we need to invest more money in our roads and our drains. It is one thing having a fantastic sewage treatment works at Bellozanne, but if you cannot get the product to Bellozanne then it is not worth having the capacity that we have.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Just to carry on this idea - because obviously the Jersey Capital Investment Fund is like a pot of money to share out - you are struggling even now to get the funding that you need. Is there a real danger that actually what happens is this big pot of money, you just get a little bit of the pot of money? At this moment in time you can clearly identify exactly what you require. You fight for your budget in your corner. Is this Jersey Capital Investment Fund not helpful at all from an Infrastructure point of view?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it is incredibly helpful, completely the opposite view to it being not helpful.

Deputy D.J. Warr : Okay.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a way of us identifying what the Island needs for the future and a way of us delivering that and not being ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So you think it will give you more leverage rather than less leverage?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely more leverage because at the moment we are debating, you know, we need to invest in health, we need to invest in education, we need to invest in security with Home Affairs, but we also need to invest in our infrastructure because without the infrastructure none of those other things I mentioned before work. So I think the Capital Investment Fund is a great opportunity for us to say: "This is the road map for the next 10 years, 15 years, and this is where we are going." At the moment we have a short period of time in government, 4 years at a time, and this will hopefully help some of the longer-term planning for the Island and Islanders.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Just to add, it is professionals who are the stewards of that infrastructure, much of which will last longer than our lifetime. What we really need is reliable and predictable funding and then you can make long-term plans and the supply chain can scale up to suit, to match those plans and make the investments in asphalt plants or whatever it needs to be in order to protect that infrastructure.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

But how does that work when we have seen recently in budgets that there has been these requests for a budget to do certain infrastructure but that has not been spent because it has not been able to spend the money because of that ... delivery is the issue rather than per se ... so what is it that makes it ...?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

It is that long-term vision and predictability of the funding. The problem is if you have a new infrastructure initiative it takes a while to scale up the supply chains and to build the capacity to be able to deliver. If you are doing it regularly, then the local supply chain will exist. It will be people who become practised in it. Because if you take something very simple such as laying roads, for instance, there are certain skills that are required. They are not required in many other industries in Jersey, but you need to sustain that skill base within the Island so that they are available for every project. If the work is peaky it is very difficult for the private sector to sustain those ... and I am not picking on roads, I just use it as an easy example.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So some of the lorries that are used for the major resurfacing contracts are only used for the major roads resurfacing contracts because they are insulated. So the temperature has to be delivered at a certain heat for it to be as good as it can be. So historically the trucks used to drive around with tarmac in the back with nothing on the top and now they are insulated with covers, the sides are insulated, so those vehicles are used in some cases just for those jobs. So we want to be able to plan to say this is the work ... so the Barber-Greenes that are used to lay the tarmac, if we are not doing major resurfacing those items are sat parked up, so still depreciating. I went recently and saw the work that happened in St. John . That was planned 5 years before I became Minister, I hasten to add, unlike some social media commenters that think I got St. John resurfaced; 5 years before it was planned. I saw the work there and I went recently to see the work in St. Clement . There is a huge amount of work that goes on and we should invite you to see that happening because it is fantastic, the work that is done, and predominantly by local contractors. So it is really good.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So when we are going back to how to set up this Capital Investment Fund and then going forward, when do you first envisage utilising this fund? Like, when will it be ready to be able to get money from it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That will depend on the debate in the Assembly. But we hope that that can happen not long after the budget debate, I would hope. That would be my personal preference.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):'

Ultimately, the process is being driven by Treasury and Resources so there is some work to do to look at scoping and so on. I do not know what their timelines are for that work.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

How will it be envisaged to get projects to receive funding? Because you have mentioned a lot of different things. It is roads, it is basically infrastructure budget will now sit within this fund, is what I feel is happening. How does ...?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The mechanics just need to be finalised. We have been working on it for a long, long time and, as I often say, nothing happens quickly, unfortunately. The focus at the moment is the budget because we have a timeline to try and get the budget through. So we have taken a back step from Investing in Jersey while we go through the budget and then we will be back full force on Investing in Jersey.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

But how will you make sure that it is not political is what I am trying to say, in the sense that you have ... for example, we saw last year in the budget that the previous Government had set in motion a number of projects that had been budgeted through, and that was part of I.H.E. (Infrastructure, Housing and Environment) for building say, for example, Le Squez and some other ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think Le Squez is a bit of an irregularity because there is not detailed plans for Le Squez. The plans were not ready. There was no planning permission. So that was not a shovel-ready programme. Am I right to say that?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: Absolutely, yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Not a shovel-ready programme.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So does that mean if it is shovel ready it does not matter which Government is in place, they cannot pull the plug, basically?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is the idea of Investing in Jersey; it goes longer than each Government. So that is what the Island needs is for us to look not at our boots, we have to look at our boots at times but we also need to look at the horizon. We do not spend enough time looking at the horizon.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Can I ask a very simplistic question? I hear what you say, that you welcome the investment fund. I am still trying to get my head round as to why that will help you in a way because you will still have to fight for your share of that. Are your fellow Ministers going to be as receptive to your ideas as they are ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have spent the last 18 months trying to raise the profile of Infrastructure. We drive, we walk, we cycle, we ride on the buses, and we just take it all for granted. We have Victorian sewers running underneath some streets in St. Helier . They will not last for ever. They have lasted an incredibly long time but they need to be maintained. We have rising sea levels which we need to address, and we have some fantastic people looking at that, addressing those rising sea levels. It is no good having the Island flooded and then starting to think about rising sea levels. We need to think ahead.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I am not challenging any of that; we have been there before. The basic question is, of course, whether your fellow Ministers take on board the gravity of the situation which maybe they have not before.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it is not limited to Ministers. It is going to be the Assembly that will make some of these decisions. So we will rely on all States Members or the majority of States Members understanding what we need to do and how we need to do it. I do not underestimate the work that is involved between now and getting Investing in Jersey through, but at least we have started that journey.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

To come back to the Constable's commentary there, we have a hospital that needs to be delivered and clearly there is only so much money around. So the question is if you have a pot of money with £100 million in it and you need 120, who gets the money? Does the hospital get the money or does Infrastructure get the money? These are the kind of challenges you are going to have.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think everybody, not only politicians but I think all Islanders expect us to get on and build the hospital as the number one priority.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So that knocks back Infrastructure? That is my point.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, we do not stop and sit down with our arms folded. There are lots of things happening. The Infrastructure team will be involved as an enabler for the hospital and have been involved as an enabler for the hospital.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

My point is how do you prioritise because it may sound simple that Infrastructure is really, really important, but actually the hospital is really, really important, as is education. So what I am saying is ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: Health, education and security.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

The problems are not different, they are just being shoved into one pot and it is ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Hopefully, by looking at the whole picture you can make an informed decision. What we are trying to do is take some of the emotion out of it because we can bang the drum about young people and children, we can bang the drum about health and we can bang the drum about Home Affairs and the need for police, and no one is going to disagree with any of those things. But I am banging the drum for infrastructure and trying to get colleagues to understand the importance of infrastructure. It is a necessity; it is not a nice to have. We need to invest in our Island and we need to do that for the long term as well as the short term.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Minister, you talked before in our last hearings about the shortfall in ... the funding pressures and the shortfalls on rates and higher waste export costs, et cetera. We see that the waste charges will only potentially be introduced from 2028, though you have mentioned before that you had wanted to see them come sooner than that.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely. So we have money, I think it is around a quarter of a million pounds, slightly more perhaps, to work on waste charges. I think it is £300,000, John. That is where we have to make the priorities. So when we are trying to deliver what we need to deliver and look to the future, that work has to happen. I would have been very happy to have been coming to the Assembly with a proposal for waste charges, but when you look at the level of work in terms of engaging with stakeholders, making sure that it is fair and equitable for people ... because the last time the department tried to do that it was not fair and equitable. It was targeting a certain part of the community and leaving other parts of the community, who perhaps were greater users of water and creating of waste, alone. So we have to try and be consistent across that. So there is work going on in the background. There is lots of work going on in the background, but we have to be realistic. Perhaps I was not realistic in my attempts to get stuff done. You cannot do everything, unfortunately.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

There is £3 million additional funding being allocated so that there is that work being able to be done for the charges. Is this adequate?

The Minister for Infrastructure: No, £300,000?

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):

The £3 million figure that is within ... there was a proposal a couple of years ago. We have lost a chunk of income within solid waste. That is offsetting that temporarily until waste charges can come in. That is due to fall away in 2027 and that is giving us some significant budgetary issues.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So it is not enough for ... it is there but it is not enough to ...?

The Minister for Infrastructure: It is 2 separate things, I think.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport): One is offsetting ... yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The work on the waste charges is the £300,000 I talked about. We have lost revenue. We have seen less revenue generated by waste than expected from existing income streams and that is challenging for us.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Can you give more detail to that, explain?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

With a reduction in large construction we see less waste being delivered to La Collette. That is basically as it is, really. There are other ... so we also have less green waste or we saw a reduction in green waste. So I think that has gone back up again. So it is about managing that. But we know - for example, we have mentioned the hospital several times - we are going to see waste coming back, so yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You think it will come back but at the moment there is a shortfall.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):

The big issue we have with solid waste at the moment is La Collette is full, so all solid waste, inert waste, incoming is now recycled. There is a much more significant cost to that operation than just putting it in a hole. So that is where we have some significant cost pressures, effectively, on that side of it. With other capital schemes that are ongoing in the future that might create additional space for receiving inert waste, but at the moment it is a significant pressure.

With the Advance the Line, we could end up importing materials.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I know Deputy Warr is going to talk about and ask more questions later on specifically on waste moving forward, so I am sure we will touch on this again. Just some last questions I want to talk about because we have not, Minister, talked for a while about the Island Construction and Engineering programme, or I.C.E. I was just wondering if you could give us a bit of an update on that.

[11:00]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not really have much of an update on the I.C.E. programme. I think an update is due to be given in the next 6 to 8 weeks to the industry. We are happy to give you that update when it is ready. But if work has not started, then clearly that pushes everything to the right, and if planning permission has been sought and is not approved, then clearly that pushes things. But we can get an update for you on the I.C.E. programme. It is a great piece of work and I think the industry appreciate that piece of work.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That would be my next question, if industry have been receptive to this. I believe that they were starting ... that a part of the programme was to try and encourage them also to utilise the programme.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Absolutely, and I attended a breakfast briefing of the industry several months ago when the I.C.E. programme was presented to the industry and it was very well received at the time. These things do not change weekly, so it is when there is major updates that we need to go out to the programme. So I would expect an update before Christmas.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Just linking that to the budget, when does the ... maybe it is something that the panel can have a bit more update and maybe even visualise it and see what it looks like maybe as well. Because does it link to the capital lines in the budget? There are different projects there. Does that feed into that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

A hundred per cent but it is not just Government work that is planned. There is work there from our A.L.O.s and some work from some of the major developers. So it is a broader picture than Government, but we can get that information shared with you in the next 6 or 8 weeks.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Thank you.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

The recent C. and A.G. (Comptroller and Auditor General) report on critical infrastructure resilience, that report made a number of recommendations and we expect you or Government will issue an official response in due course. Can you for now share your initial response for the report?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, in general terms I was quite happy, as I normally am with the C. and A.G.'s reports. The one area that I was not happy with was the northern bus link. We agreed a contract with our current provider which was significantly cheaper than our previous contract, and my wish was to invest some of that money into additional services. That money was used for other things without consultation with me as the Minister. So the bus link was then funded, having received advice, using moneys from the Climate Emergency Fund, which I think is a good use of moneys from the Climate Emergency Fund because it is available to all of the public to use and not just people who can afford to buy a bike or a car. So I think that route could have been achieved a different method. I have a little bit of knowledge about transport and logistics, but I understand why it was put in the way it is put in. It has been reasonably well received, particularly by visitors to the zoo, where a quarter of passengers get on the bus at the zoo. So that is quite encouraging. I would like to see more promotion of that bus because it can help people who do not go and see neighbours, who are not able to drive and who live in neighbouring parishes to use it. So I hope to see ridership increased. In terms of other areas of the review, I think we have accepted some of the comments and we have already implemented some of the work. I think some of the work was already in train. So we will be responding to that review. I am not sure of the timescale. Do you know the timescale?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

So there is a matrix being completed and a lot of the points that were brought out for us have been addressed. I think that matrix goes back to C.O.M. (Council of Ministers) in the end of the month and then at some point after that it goes back to the Public Accounts Committee for them to review progress upon. I am speaking specifically around the infrastructure piece. In terms of the number 10 bus, I think it is important to note that at the time of the C. and A.G. review, there was not the paperwork to provide on how we would do the assessment on the carbon accounting, but that is

now in place. There is basically a lag between that and getting the documentation there, and that documentation was not there at that time.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

But that route, from what you say, is in operation, albeit funded by a different means. Are there any variances in the actual operation of it which ...?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

When it was introduced it was quite a nonsense, in my opinion. It was running between probably 9.00 a.m. and 2.30 p.m., which was not much use to people. They were advertising lunches in rural pubs, which you could go to but you could not get back. It was a bit of a ... so it is now running every 2 hours and it enables people to go from the eastern parishes right through to Quennevais. So youngsters can go to the Quennevais skate park. People with appointments can go to the Enid Quenault Centre. People can go to the airport and back again from the airport. So there is lots of potential and it should hopefully help some of those rural businesses which may slow down in the winter. This week we have seen the magazine advertising the hospitality lunches and dinners, so hopefully people may utilise the bus to go and access the services of some of those venues which are off the beaten track, without having to go to town and out of town again.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is it now part of the contract with Liberty Bus or is it being funded still by the Climate Emergency Fund?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is funded by the Climate Emergency Fund.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

What happens when that funding will stop?

The Minister for Infrastructure: It is a good question.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):

It is a one-year pilot at this point, so it is limited time funding. Then we will, depending on the ...

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: It is a bit longer than a year.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport): Is it?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Yes. We have basically got funding until sometime next September and then we will review the ridership then and how much support it needs and take it from there.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

So as far as you are concerned it is a permanent fixture in some form?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, it is not a permanent fixture, unfortunately. We have to evaluate it. So it is a case of use it or lose it would be my message, and I would hope that people will promote the usage of it. Certainly, in my parish magazine I have been promoting the fact that it is there. We do not have a significant budget to promote it using physical methods. There is a lot of promotion online. I think we have had quite good hits online for the bus. The other thing we are doing around buses is explaining to people the benefits of riding the bus, because if you compare the cost of riding the bus to running a second car, running a car, it is quite significant. So if you are buying a monthly parking ticket in St. Helier it is £172.80. If you buy a monthly bus pass it is £55. If you add in fuel and depreciation, insurance and servicing of a car, people could be saving significant money each year by riding the bus. Many people who get the same bus as I do, the number 5, do it because of the cost efficiencies. I see young families or young professionals getting on the bus because they have gone down to one car because of the cost benefits. We are going to start promoting that on the back of buses, electronically on social media, but also in car parks because this really is a great opportunity. We have seen an increase of concessionary fares go from 17 per cent to nearer 40 per cent. So we have seen a good uptake of young people, who will be the bus riders of tomorrow, taking the bus. So there is a lot of work for us to do there.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

We will talk a little bit more about sustainable transport later, but the Connétable was focusing a bit more on the infrastructure, the resilience, so that wider piece.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes. Again, the C. and A.G. report declared as its first priority a request for a clear definition of Island critical structure, including sea, aircraft and on-Island transport and key routes that fall within the definition. Has a definition for that been agreed and when will that be finalised?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I am not involved with the air links or the sea links, but the roads, certainly the teams in my experience - and that goes back many years - they prioritise which roads need to be cleared first in priority. There is more work happening with the parishes. The parishes are being more co-ordinated so there is work going on with the emergency planning team, which parishes are all represented at. So, for example, in St. John I can tell you that our snow plan did not used to include Cheval Roc because Cheval Roc was a hotel which closed in the winter. Our plan has changed substantially because Cheval Roc is now a nursing home and, for example, in Storm Ciaran we needed to be able to get staff in and staff out, and we needed to ensure that if an emergency vehicle was needed to get there. So our plans change and evolve just like the Government's plans change and evolve. I think the team are to be congratulated on the great work they do, the flexibility they show. Some of those people work through the night to ensure things are done and putting it on a more formal basis is happening. But perhaps you want to talk about that, Tristen.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Can I just add very briefly if I may? So what we have is a strategic road network, which is based on the type of vehicles that use it. So we know what the logistics routes are. We know which roads obviously go to hospitals and other important community amenities. So our operational plans all focused around that and likewise how we support the buses moving around in terms of gritting and the hills, et cetera. They all exist in operational plans and that has been developed over decades. That is why the Island is as resilient as it is. What the Comptroller and Auditor General was asking for is those plans be translated into an emergency preparedness plan, which is much more strategic, which looks at more how the chain of command works and sets all that out so that can go in a formal emergency plan. So the ingredients are all there. The information is all there. It is lifting some of that information and putting it into this higher-level strategic plan. But for the comfort of the population, the actual processes are all in place right now and have been tested.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I just want to follow up because one of the big issues this summer has been so much, a huge level of roadworks, which has caused massive disruption. There are 2 words that have just been picked out here. One is co-ordinated and the other one is strategic. I would not describe the digging up of all the roads that took place this summer as being either co-ordinated or strategic. So I am curious to know how you justify that level of disruption in an Island at the height of the season.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, the justification is there is 20 per cent less traffic on the roads during school holidays.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

But that is secondary to tourism and visitor economy.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is, but I remember when we had hire cars and public queuing up at the Shell Garden at the top of St. Aubin's hill getting into town in the summer. That does not happen these days. The work on St. Clement Coast Road was planned for 5 years, over 5 years, when it was going to take place. There was lots of dialogue. I went to one of the public meetings to get the feedback. I visited the Constable of St. Clement on the penultimate day of the works and he was really complimentary about the interaction with the team, the quality of the work, and understood the work had to be done. That work was scheduled to offer the least disruption as possible. Trinity Road, we did not want to close Trinity Road for as long as it was closed, but when you find a void underneath a road you cannot just fill it. You have to do the works properly.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

It is not so much the work needs to be done, sorry ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The work on Trinity Road was delayed because of the work that was done in Rouge Bouillon. Again, that was a safety issue. When I visited the property, my first thoughts before visiting was, well, you can open one road, one lane of traffic, but when you saw the property and you saw the width of the crack and the level of risk that was associated with that, you could not open the road, not even for pedestrians. So there is a system called Traffic Works, where works are planned and scheduled, and that is not only for government roads but also for parish roads. That works, I would say, reasonably well. We have currently got the local electric company doing the big upgrade, I think it is called, and if you consider the level of work we have to do, we have over 500 miles of sewers under the roads. The water have a similar length of water pipes. Electric will have more. Island Energy will have significant kilometres of gas under the roads. We are not replacing that as quickly as possible so there will be more roadworks rather than less roadworks in the near future.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I am not sure that is much comfort to the public, but I ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, it will be comfort. The issue is, David, you have to upgrade your infrastructure. Leaving it there and it becoming failing causes more disruption, just as we saw with Trinity Road because we found voids there and that took far longer to fix than the planned works. So it is not going to be much comfort, but hopefully the public will take comfort from the fact that we are addressing these issues which have been left for far too long.

[11:15]

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay. Sorry, I am conscious I am interrupting the Constable's questions.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

No, the question touched on areas which we are dealing with in a minute in road transport. Before we leave the critical structure, just one final question if I may. You already mentioned that certain areas for air and on-Island ... or sea and air are not within your area. Therefore, what extent are you collaborating with other Ministers in implementing the C. and A.G.'s recommendations? Or are you doing it on a piece by piece basis?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So each department will be drafting their responses and that will come to the Council of Ministers and we will discuss it then.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Can I just add a little point to Deputy Warr 's question? That is really that ... so the report was about infrastructure resilience. We have underinvested in all of our infrastructure for decades. What you are seeing is a less resilient infrastructure and that is because the infrastructure is ageing but also there is new equipment that needs to be put in to keep up with modern times. In terms of how it is co-ordinated, we have to take a view of where the public good lies and also what makes economic sense. When you fill potholes, that is effectively money wasted. It keeps people safe but it does not do anything to preserve the condition of the road network. So the work, you can do it better in the summer but you have to be careful of which routes. So the routes we chose were routes where it was not specific tourist facilities on them or where we could mitigate that. So we would not do St. Brelade 's Bay, for instance, in the middle of the summer, but there are routes where we know that the alternative is having complete congestion on the school days, everyone trying to get there. So it is trying to balance that with these increasing number of emergency type operations that occur, either due to gas or to buildings that have become unsafe or to voids underneath the road. It is a really difficult balance and I think anyone can always say you could always have done it a different way, but the other way might not have been any better.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I think we have a number of questions and the Connétable is going to focus on ...

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, Deputy Warr 's question and your answers have dealt with some of the points we were going to raise, but just going back to the plan as it were, a general one. Again, the C. and A.G.'s report commented on the resilience of Jersey's transport infrastructure and highlighted significant backlog to road maintenance and questioned whether current funding is adequate. So on that specific point, how large is that backlog today in measurable terms and how are you tackling it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think in an ideal world we would probably double the investment on our roads maintenance. So we are probably spending £7.5 million, £8 million a year and we probably could spend £16 million a year on roads maintenance. I think there is probably a steady state which is probably around the £12 million mark. But we assess the quality of the roads. That is done regularly. We use technology to do that. I think we use A.I. (artificial intelligence) at times, do we not?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

There is some A.I. incorporated in it. We have a 30-year model of the road network and its deterioration and we can measure the level of impairment, so the amount, the value of the road network which is being consumed, which is the gap between it being perfect and where it is now.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

When you were saying about that £8 million and it really should be £16 million, and obviously that is related to the budget discussions and the fact that there are these discussions now, with the Capital Investment Fund would you be seeing that you would then be able to get that £12 million or £16 million or do you still see that there would be an issue?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We would be hoping for an increase in the investment specifically for that. But the other thing we are looking at is we use a treatment called micro ...

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: Micro asphalt.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

... asphalt, which is not resurfacing. Micro asphalt is basically a product that is sprayed on to the road and that is designed to prolong the life of the road. We have had various levels of success with that. In some areas it is fantastic; in other areas, for example, at Maufant when the contractors were back this year, they had to repair the work they had done at Maufant the year before. You need to have areas that the sun gets to and there is plenty of traffic that goes over it because it kind of welds the product in. I am looking with the team at whether or not we continue to do that, because that allows us to do more roads than otherwise, or whether we adopt a similar method to what happens in Guernsey, where they do what is called a top coat. Now, the top coat is more expensive than the micro asphalt but what we are trying to ascertain is the life, the length of that process. Lots of our roads, we must remember, carry far more weight than when they were constructed. So we see double-decker buses, which we used to see a long time ago, but double-decker buses are on the roads. We see large trucks on the road and the volume of heavier vehicles on the road. So the reconstruction, when we do the reconstruction of the roads, it is significant and designed to last for tens of years.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Just on that, it is a mathematical point but it is an important point. So the damaging effect of a vehicle is a power 3 ratio. What that means is basically one truck does as much damage as about 124,000 cars. Now, cars are getting heavier so some of those cars now are almost like truck weight. It is not just linear, it is exponential how much additional damage they manage to cause to the road. Because a traditional family car really does not do any damage at all, it just polishes the surface a bit.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I suppose linking the 2 points that Deputy Warr mentioned about this summer there was more roadworks, well, we are seeing more roadworks in general because you are also trying to decrease that backlog or, as you have mentioned, there is this underinvestment and there is this real need. You were saying that there will be money available in the Capital Investment Fund specifically that hopefully will increase. So are we then going to see then an increase in the amount of roadworks and do we have the capacity to do that? Are we able to do that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We are going to see significant ... I think it is worth remembering that a lot of the roadworks are not generated by government. So the upgrade of the electricity is done by the local electricity provider and they are doing miles of replacement, miles of replacement. We have significant work to do to upgrade the drains for the new ... not only have we got to build big attenuation tanks, we have to be able to get the product from the homes to those tanks. So there is significant work that is going to be done. We are looking to utilise going across fields where we possibly can, but that is not always possible. So there is going to be significant disruption for long periods of time while these works are carried out. The planning that goes into it is significant. The infrastructure teams talk to the local parishes. They talk to the bus operator. So unless it is an emergency, it does not happen without going through a whole process and registered on Traffic Works. So that is where all of the works are registered. We are desperately trying to get water to work with ourselves and electricity to make sure if we are digging up a road, we dig it up once.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So they do not do it at the moment?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, they do. They say that we do, but I am aware of some instances where one utility has plans to do something and we have said: "Do not do that work because we need to talk to the other utilities." The monthly meetings are designed to ensure there is as much collaboration as possible, but I would think there could be more collaboration. Again, it is about thinking forward because if we are putting a new power cable in a road today, how long before we have to put a new water pipe through that same road? Why do we not put the pipe there? We do not even have to connect it. Let us put it down at the same time. So there is a lot of work does take place, but I think we could do more.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Just one last point, just on the point about more roadworks, if we had more money we would have to cover more area, but it is not just that. It is the depth you go down. So the deeper you can reconstruct the road, the longer it will be before we have to go back again. So at the moment on our business network, what we call the class 1 network, which is basically from town to the airport to the east of the Island, it lasts about 10 years. But if you could ever do a deep reconstruction and put down a 300-millimetre pavement, it basically has an indeterminate life and you would just have to replace the wearing surface occasionally. We are nowhere near that. Our roads are not designed for the traffic. So additional funding would allow you to start doing both.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Just going back to the backlog, as it were, and the fact you would like twice as much money, are you saying that for the next year or so that is going to be the position and, therefore, your way of achieving reduction of that is really to look at the alternatives, the alternative methods of servicing?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, we have a great team that are involved in the highways maintenance who put a lot of time and effort into getting things right. We spoke earlier about efficiencies and they work really hard with the local suppliers. We will continue to look. As technology changes, as products change, we will continue to look at that and whether or not they are appropriate for the Island. Because some products are too expensive to bring to the Island, so we have to consider that. The type of stone that is generated on the Island is different to other areas and, therefore, has different positives and negatives for it.

Just to add, the type of maintenance, the micro surfacing we have been talking about, is about preserving what we have and keeping it as defect free as possible. The other part of it is the resurfacing, which is the renewal of that infrastructure. So you would always have a mix of the 2.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Okay. I had a point about Trinity Road but I think you have probably dealt with that already, so moving on to the impact of roadworks on local businesses, which has been the subject of press comment. Has any consideration been given to compensation where trading has been significantly affected?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have a huge amount of sympathy with people who are impacted, but I have already ... I think I have made the point fairly clear. We do not have enough money to do the amount of work we want to do, and if we have to divert some of that revenue to people that have been disrupted, then we will have less money to do the works. It is a significant challenge for some businesses, and some businesses plan their holidays around when the works are there. That is why we publish 5 years in advance where we are going to be doing resurfacing works. Clearly, if there is an emergency you cannot publish that 5 years in advance, but we do give as much information as possible. We certainly work hard in terms of signage, and where we are asked to add signage we will give that due consideration and often we will put in additional signage.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, can I interrupt you there? That is one of the problems, the allegations that signage is confusing. I know you say that the public are not observing them, but can more be done on the signage explanation?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think there are 2 things we should do on the signage. We should remind people that we are investing in the Island when we are doing this work and we should also remind people of the penalties if you ignore a road sign. I go back to Easter when there was significant works in St. John . It was fairly straightforward, I thought. If you followed the signs, you went from A to B fairly reasonably. It took a little bit longer but it was fairly okay. If you ignored the signs, you got yourself in a right ... and sometimes the signs are put in the wrong place or a truck knocks a sign so you cannot see it, but in general I think the team do a good job with signage. If somebody has a business and they ask for us to put another sign, we generally would try and do that for them.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I just want to come back to businesses because it does not matter how good the signs are. I am looking at Trinity stores as a classic one. I think we had a fish and chip place at Grands Vaux. We had a tennis club which businesses were absolutely up in arms about what is going on. It is all well and good saying to these businesses: "Well, pick and choose when you shut down, take your holidays", because the Government tells you that you should be doing that as the way to operate. I do not know that is any consolation. The landlords are not stopping the rent while you are digging up the roads. What consolation can we give to businesses when you do major disruption, when the Government is involved in major disruption of this level? We are not talking about the odd hole in the ground. We are talking about weeks of disruption and that is massive impact on cash flow of businesses. So what comfort could you give to businesses that you have their interests at heart?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have spoken to at least one of those business owners and I have a lot of sympathy with that organisation. Because we did a lot of work at Trinity . Then the parish did a lot of work reinstating a wall. It might have been the other way round. Then the local electric company came along and dug a hole, and this is my point about co-ordinating things and trying to do things more collaboratively. One of those businesses you mentioned did close for annual holidays through their choice, and a club ...

Deputy D.J. Warr : Choice? I think forced to.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, okay. The club I am sure has the ability to communicate with their members to advise them of the roadworks. We do a lot of work. We have done for the last probably 12 months every weekend we publish the roadworks for the following week.

[11:30]

We do that as often as we can. The local media help us with announcements about road closures. So we are really keen to try and promote where roads are closed and the alternative routes, but it is a challenge for business. I fully accept it is a challenge for businesses, but I have also dealt with a business who told me they were going to lose £1,800 in a day, which closes frequently, and I just could not do the maths personally.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You talked to us about communication and being able to in advance communicate with businesses and with the public. Has there been an assessment on the communication, that this has been the right level of communication that there could be done; any lessons learnt from that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think driving home last week I saw the signs advertising that the marathon was going to take place on 5th October. Lots of advance warning takes place for events, for roadworks when we know about the roadworks, and I hasten to add we do not always know about roadworks and sometimes when we plan to do works. Trinity Road is a great example. The sewer was in the middle of the road so you could not open one carriageway or the other. Ideally, we would have opened one carriageway to keep some of the traffic flowing. Then you have to consider do you put no parking on Langley Avenue and Langley Park, which would have allowed the traffic to flow more easily, but what is the impact on the residents who park outside the houses? So there are lots of things that the team take into account. I do not know if we have surveyed people in that area to say whether we did a good or a bad job around communicating, but I think for a good number of years now the Infrastructure Department - probably from the time of Deputy de Faye - introduced pre-advice on when roads were going to be closed. It is about encouraging people to follow those signs, it really is, and not think that: "The signs are there for everyone else but me."

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

The process has been refined over the years and so what we have is standard procedures which we impose upon utilities, et cetera, for the type of works and the type of road that they are working on, and that sets what the advance notification needs to be and letter drops, et cetera.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. One last question and then ...

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, just before that one if I may, Chair, you talked about the policing and the enforcement of it. I mean, how practical is that given that ... have there been any discussions with the honoraries or ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have seen some parishes who have engaged more than others in terms of policing. It is about availability of officers, is it not, and ...

The Connétable of St. Mary : That is what I am getting at.

... where we have seen that I think words of advice have been given to people rather than heavy finds. When you see people blatantly ignoring road closed signs it is frustrating because you are spending money. This is an important point to make: we close the road for 24 hours when we are doing major reconstruction because it saves us about a day a week in terms of having to make the road safe for vehicles to pass and then undoing that work before we start again the following day. So it is probably an hour to an hour and a half a day we save and, therefore, it shortens the length of period that the roads are closed for.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Short and sharp and one second it is done. Anyway, that is the end of the questioning on roads generally, apart from a legislative point really. At the last hearing you said that the roads and traffic law review was a massive piece of work scheduled to take 5 years, with law drafting to begin in 2025. Can you confirm whether this drafting has now begun or is about to begin?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a huge amount of consultation, which has involved the 13 highway authorities around the Island, and that work is continuing.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: Yes, and we are on the cusp of starting the drafting instructions.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Okay, and you maintain that it will be a 5-year programme?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

We are getting through the 5-year programme. I cannot give you an update exactly where it ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The work probably started 2 years ago.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Yes, basically. So it is well on ... there are a lot of principles and the high-level legal advice is now received back, which will allow law drafting instructions to be produced.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Okay, I look forward to that. Or maybe I do not.

It is prioritised by theme.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Moving away from roads ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Well, it is a bit of road: revitalising town. The panel wishes to note that it will be scrutinising the Common Strategic Policy priority of revitalising town in much greater detail, but one thing which is obviously coming up right now is that you have started phase one of the improvement of Broad Street on 1st September, and that covers Lloyds Bank to the post office. Could you explain why the project has been split up into 4 phases and what factors determine the timing of each phase?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, quite simply, consultation with stakeholders. So the traders in the area did not want us to be doing major works during the Christmas peak period, for example. So that is a good example of where we have had dialogue with the key stakeholders. Broad Street is part of the retail strategy, it is part of the visitor strategy, so there is significant benefits in investing in public realm, which is recognised globally. Locally, we have seen 5 new al fresco applications in the New Cut area since we finished the work there, which is fantastic. We have seen great take-up in Halkett Street since we did the work with the parish in Halkett Street. So the work is done in phases so as to minimise disruption and noise for local traders.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

That is fine; sorry, I am going to cut you short because we have a load of questions and we are running behind schedule here. Thank you for that answer. On King Street, New Street and New Cut pedestrian priority has been introduced. How are you engaging with traders on that, and disabled groups and other users, to assess the impact of the trial and what feedback have you had so far?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have done a huge amount of effort with the blue badge holders. We have written to every blue badge holder and encouraged them to take part in a survey. We have introduced 3 parking spaces outside of the banks for a 2-hour period ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

A follow-up question to that is what would determine that it becomes permanent, as far as you are concerned?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

As far as I am concerned it is important. It is permanent, is it not? Is it 12 months or permanent?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

It is done under Article 68, which basically allows you to trial it in case there is anything that we have not anticipated, and then beyond the Article 68 we will be recommending to the Minister - as long as nothing comes out of the woodwork - that it be replaced by a formal order ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

How long does that usually last?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Twelve months.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is it 12 months and then it goes ...

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

Twelve months, yes, and it is a simpler facility to create an Article 68 than it is to get a full order.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, that is great. Moving on to town markets, Minister, at our quarterly hearing in March you told the panel that you had seen plans costing around £12 million for the markets, but that you would not support progressing them. Since that large scheme is not being taken forward, what alternative plans are in place and when can Islanders expect to see them delivered?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We do need to invest in the markets, and particularly in the floors of the markets, and hopefully that is going to be happening in the near future. The Constable of St. Helier has responsibility for the markets delegated to him and we are both aligned that we need to invest in the market, but not to the extent of the £12 million.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So you reckon that floor improvements and things like that will be 2026; is that your anticipation?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I certainly hope that we can start some of the work.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

To do that, okay, fine, great. How was the decision to rule out more substantial capital investment taken? Was there a formal options appraisal? Given the Council of Minister's emphasis on revitalising St. Helier , do you accept that shelving larger market investment may have expectations unmet?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think that the plans for the market were very grand and I think what we have done is worked closely with the market traders, who wanted to have some kind of surety that they were not going to be displaced for alternatives. So we put a lot of work and effort - and particularly the Constable of St. Helier - in finding agreement with the market traders to put them on a firmer footing rather than a 12-month rolling contract. I think the dialogue with the market traders has helped us come to our decision. We do not need to rebrand the market into something totally different but we should celebrate the uniqueness of our Jersey markets ...

Deputy D.J. Warr : Absolutely agree with that.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

... but that does not mean to say we do not invest in them.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Future projects: at the last hearing you mentioned ambitions for green space at Springfield and improvements at Rouge Bouillon. How are these being prioritised and funded in the budget in 2026 and what are the indicative delivery timelines?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

In terms of Springfield we are looking at play areas in Springfield. Hopefully when the school closes that will become a green space, but that is certainly not going to be in 2026. What was the other area, sorry?

Deputy D.J. Warr : Rouge Bouillon.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So Rouge Bouillon is the same. We have a lot of work to do in the Rouge Bouillon area and while some of the planning work will start in 2026 I do not see any of the building work starting in 2026.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Do you see Rouge Bouillon closing down as well and being moved to potentially a super school on Gas Place?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

You would need to ask the Minister for Education for the details, but I understand it is an incredibly large catchment area at Rouge Bouillon and my understanding is that the school will move to Gas Place while works at Rouge Bouillon are done to build a new school, and then Rouge Bouillon's community will move back to the school. Then the 2 schools, St. Luke's and Springfield, will move into the new school at Gas Place.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, thank you for clarifying that. The panel wishes to note that its upcoming public hearing with Jersey Property Holdings is scheduled 7th October, so this hearing will examine the organisation's model. Within the most recent Strategic Property Management Report published in May, the C. and A.G. concluded that J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings) is still not functioning as a corporate landlord, and you previously said J.P.H. needs a "rebrand and relaunch". Will you take any steps towards the relaunch before the end of this term?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would like to think we can but it is not all in my gift. I think I have mentioned the progress we have made with the schools, putting in service level agreements, but Education receives a similar amount of money for property as Property Holdings does, and Education is responsible for less property than we are, so there is an imbalance. We are looking at other models.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Just coming on to that point about S.L.A.s (service level agreements), what tangible difference have you seen? Has it improved things, reduced disputes? Has it improved maintenance clarity?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I believe it has but I would ask Tim.

Director, Property Holdings:

I think so. One of the things we have introduced and made sure that we follow through on are more regular meetings between the management, the maintenance officers and the school heads and caretakers, so going on site and listening to what people have got to say. I think that the feedback generally is that this is improving things, that the schools feel less disenfranchised, and we are getting to the bottom of some of the challenges. Having said that, we still continue to have a chronic under-resource in the work that we can do, so there are material issues perhaps on areas such as sufficient play space or teaching space that it is difficult to respond to. At the same time, again as the Minister observed, we are working closely with the Education Department to make sure that our views, the department's views and the school's views are fused and that there are no independent activities that could take priority away from the Education Department or the school's view or our view, and that we are operating much more in sync. But the bottom line is that we still do not have enough resources.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have done a lot of work - I have spoken about this before - around the usage of facilities at school buildings, and the Minister for Education and myself have worked closely together to get that information. It has taken a lot longer than we had both hoped but we have that information. We are also working on other areas of school estate that may be getting utilised for other things, which we are trying to align with our strategy.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, thank you, that has answered one of my questions I was going to bring up later. To evaluate progress on strategic site developments, Minister, we are now midway through the design phase for the Fort Regent development progress. Can you update us on the progress to date and confirm whether the project remains on track to submit a full planning application by December 2025?

[11:45]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The answer to that is yes. The team are doing some great work. The planning application for the roof and façade should be in by the end of November and the site-wide application is still scheduled to be in place for the end of December, as are the external landscapes. We have had some pre- planning advice feedback received about a month ago and we are in discussions with planning around that. We are also talking to a number of stakeholders and it is confirmed that we will have a nursery provision on the site. We have not only spoken to the existing provider but we have also spoken to colleagues in C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) to ensure that there is the demand because that is a good ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So that is going to be retained throughout the works?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It will be retained while the new one is being built, yes.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

It is quite interesting; you are talking us through Infrastructure but obviously your delivery arm is Jersey Development Company, so I am trying to understand how the mechanics works.

The Minister for Infrastructure: We are responsible for Fort Regent.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, and J.D.C. simply deliver ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: They are our agent.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

They are your agent and they do the delivery. You do all the hard work of getting all the paperwork sorted out for them to deliver that?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I would not underestimate the efforts put in by the team at the Jersey Development Company and I am really pleased with the partnership that we have with them.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I am just understanding the relationship, that is all.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

But ultimately Tim is the officer with responsibility for Fort Regent.

Director, Property Holdings: Yes.

Deputy D.J. Warr : Okay, that is fine.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I think you have answered my question. I was going to say who is driving it forward, given the relationship with the development company.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The Regeneration Steering Group discuss Fort Regent almost at all of their meetings, and in fact it was discussed only last week at the Regeneration Steering Group. The Regeneration Steering Group signalled their contentment with the progress that is being made so far, the ongoing works, so we are talking to people from outside the organisation about a whole range of things. We are talking to potential cinema operators, people that may help us with the concert hall or show court, whatever you want to call it, the big space, and outdoor initiatives. There is lots of dialogue going on and I think our partner - Jersey Development Company - should be congratulated on the work they have done to date.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

With that, obviously the planning applications that are going through are to make it a safe and secure space, as you have talked about before. It needs some work to then start filling with potentially these different plans and these different companies potentially providing different things. There was in the presentation before about the potential hotel on the outside. Would that be a separate planning application at a different point in time?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, I think that is probably one of the hardest things to get planning permission for, but the Fort will need to be up and running regardless of whether there is or is not a hotel there. I understand there is some interest from operators in the potential of a hotel, but I do not underestimate the challenges with the swimming pool structure having been removed. From a historic buildings perspective it is not going to be an easy decision to make, I should think.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Does that mean that the Fort will be sustainable enough to be able to be run without the revenue from a hotel? It is not reliant on each other and we could still see these things going through without having a hotel?

The Minister for Infrastructure: Absolutely, yes.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Just carrying on with strategic sites, Philip Le Feuvre House is sitting empty and has been sat empty for some time now since the Social Security Department have moved out. It was put up for sale and expressions of interest were sought. I understand those interests were brought in, but subsequently the site was withdrawn from the market. Can you explain why that action was taken and why you did not progress with a sale of the site?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I can. It is on the market and I understand people were viewing it either last week or this week.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Has it just gone on the market again?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, it has been on the market for some time. What has happened is we were looking at selling the whole site, including the old youth club, as I describe it, and at the back of La Motte Street we have a very important function which is known as The Diner, and it is used for a lot of mental health patients. The Health Department have been given a licence to use that part of the site to continue that service. So the Social Security Fund did not own that part of the building, they owned Philip Le Feuvre House and Huguenot House, and those are the 2 parts that are on the market, which is actively being promoted. I am aware because somebody contacted me about how they would arrange a visit so I am aware that visits are taking place.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I just come back to the point, there was clearly an expressions of interest originally put out there and those expressions of interest were responded to. There were companies out there who tried to put in bids for the site. Obviously we are renewing this effort. My question really was: why was that process stalled originally? Why are we now still waiting?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Because one of the expressions of interest was from our own department to provide a much needed service for mental health patients. So the decision was made to ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, but we have a construction industry which is on its knees and surely we should be getting on and making sure we look after them.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Are you saying, Minister ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There will be significant investment required for the area that is being retained by Government, but having visited The Diner I can see huge benefits on the location. It is in town but it is not in the middle of town so it is quite discreet, and I think that is a great opportunity that we should not give up.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Are you saying, Minister, that because of that expression of interest from a Government department that the site has changed, so in a sense ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: That is absolutely correct, yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

... because of that there needs to be this new launch and new consideration?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Exactly. If we are in an expression of interest and there is a change, then you have to go back out again.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

With a different dimension of ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: With a different option, yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Would this space still be considered for flats, or is open for ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The Bridging Island Plan identified it as affordable homes. We have had a number of expressions of interest ranging from a park to a carpark to accommodation to a hotel. So whoever buys the site will have to go through the relevant planning processes for whatever they choose ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

So you foresee the Bridging Island Plan being overridden?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I did not say I saw the Bridging Island Plan overridden. I said quite explicitly there had been a number of expressions of interest for different things. The Bridging Island Plan is clear it is for affordable homes.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, so what I am just saying, just to clarify that point, that for anybody who has expressions of interest out there, that they do not worry about the fact that in the Bridging Island Plan it says for affordable homes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

No, I did not say that all. I did not say that at all, David.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, I am trying to understand what you are saying, that is why.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I explained to you the Bridging Island Plan is very clear that the site has been identified for affordable homes. We have had people express interest for a whole range of uses and they would need to follow the planning process, full stop.

Deputy D.J. Warr : Okay.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. I think we will move on to sustainable transport and active travel. Noting the time, we have talked a little bit about buses, for example, though I have a few more questions, but one question I have is that you mention in your business plan for 2025 a cycling and walking infrastructure strategy, which I know we have talked about before in other hearings. You have talked about walking through St. Helier with the Connétable . We have not seen that strategy; where is it?

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I am pleased to say that we have a working group which includes Government officials, parish officials, and members of Cycle for Jersey, who are working on a number of proposed plans. Some of that work went to the Parish Roads Committee last week and was approved for the cycle networks, Tristen? They supported one of the schemes I think, did they not?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: Yes.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

That work is moving ahead. You will be aware that we have extended the trial for the bottom of College Hill. College Hill is one of those roads that has been closed by the local electricity provider, but we have extended the trial there. Speaking to parents, students and teachers, they appear happy, and talking to some of the residents, they appear to be quite happy with the scheme because we did not close the road 24 hours a day, we close it at drop off and pick up times.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

But will we be seeing a cycling and walking strategy and will this strategy feed into the Capital Investment Fund? Would that be a place where we could see funding coming out to support more of these ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think our priority is doing things, so we have introduced probably 70 new cycle spaces in St. Helier this year, ranging from Dumaresq Street, Charles Street, double parking at Snow Hill and Sand Street. We have this group up and running with, as I said, the Roads Committee of St. Helier , and they are going to be changing the direction of traffic on the Oxford Road cycle lane, which I think is incredibly dangerous personally. The Roads Committee I think approved that last week. So there is a huge amount of working going on. We are working with the schools ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

So you are saying that though it was in the business plan there is not going to be a strategy, it is more about ad hoc places where we see that there needs to be but without this kind of wider look into a walking and cycling strategy?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We have been working across ... desperate to do something in the east of the Island, from Gorey to St. Saviour , but we are liaising with the parish roads committees in those 2 areas. I think we know what we are trying to achieve and it is about trying to deliver some of these things.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Achieving these things, a lot of the time it is related to money, so would this be part of the Capital Investment fund?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

You are absolutely right, there is some that needs investment. But there are some very quick wins, in my opinion, where you do not need to spend a lot of money on capital investment, you need to just make some slight tweaks. We are trying to get some quick wins. We clearly have invested capital in providing additional covered cycle shelters in St. Helier , but the work goes on. Anything you want to add, Tristen?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

You may have seen the plan for the Bagatelle Road, which is a significant schools cluster. There is a new crossing that has gone in there at J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and that has got 200 pedestrians crossing in an afternoon up there, so that is very successful. We have the resurfacing of that road coming up, so in conjunction with that we have other pedestrian improvements that will be created down there at the top of Les Varines.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you. We talked about number 10 and the fact it was using the Climate Emergency Fund to help start up this trial. Is there going to be other additional bus routes using the Climate Emergency Fund? Is there more planned?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think what is interesting is we have seen a 60 per cent increase on the Hopper buses since we have been in post. We have added 3 new stops to that route and we are trying to encourage people, not only St. Helier residents but people who do not live in St. Helier , to use through tickets. So if you are coming in from Trinity , St. John or St. Mary you can come in on the 4, 5 or 7, jump on to the Hopper bus and it will take you to Springfield, it will take you to the waterfront, it will take you near the hospital; it takes you all over the place. So we are really working hard to promote that. I think in general the buses serve the Island reasonably well. There are areas which do not get service and we heard this morning on the radio about Plémont. We do not go to places like Fliquet or Noirmont or Ouaisne. There are a whole range of areas that we do not go to and the reason we do not go to is there is not the demand. It is about trying to get the best service we can with the resources we have.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

There was introduction about the school travel safety schemes, and we talked a little bit just now about some introduction of changes around College Hill and above as well. At the last hearing you talked about the road safety schemes, such as Samarès and Le Linnery, were progressing slower than hoped. What caused the delay?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That is an area where we need to acquire some land and those discussions are ongoing, unfortunately. There are junctions which are not suitable to encourage active travel through and, therefore, you have to make some adjustments. If we do not own the land, then you have to try and acquire the land, so those discussions are ongoing. I met recently with representatives from that area and we are all keen to try and find solutions. We have improved that area with improved signage but there is more that we can do, we want to do, but it is about finding people that are willing to work with you rather than not sell their land.

[12:00]

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

These things always seem from the outside to progress very slowly but it is important to remember the difference that we have made. We now have a path from basically the parish hall in St. Clement all the way through to Le Squez, or a route with off-road path sections. It is just chipping away with them, and discussions are progressing positively with the landowner at the moment.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

You cannot compulsorily purchase?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

It is not a route we have ever gone down for these type of things. We have always tried to work with landowners and with developers.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

A lot of these road safety schemes have been talked about being pilots. Are we seeing them becoming permanent fixtures? Will they be permanent fixtures? In a way I am saying before the political term is out are we going to see these become permanent so that we do not see them being potentially dropped in the next Government?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think things like the school street at St. Luke's, that is a permanent fixture; we have made that permanent. I think in terms of introducing schemes there is a mechanism which is called a 68; is that what you call it?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure: Article 68.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Article 68, which makes it easier to introduce something on a temporary basis than introduce something on a permanent basis, and so I think the Article 68 is often used to try and speed up the process. We are really keen to do something at the junction on the railway walk at the top of the La Pulente hill, but again we have got to liaise with landowners. When I visited the site there were young people just got off the bus and it is very dangerous for people to walk in that area, and many areas of the Island. We are doing our best with the resource we have to achieve what we can in the time we have got.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

My last question on this: we have talked a little bit about a range of individual schemes and I think you have touched on this as well, but stepping back do you think Jersey has made progress on delivering a sustainable transport system, and what do you think the biggest barriers are?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do I believe we have made progress? I would say yes. Do I believe we could do more? Absolutely. It is a challenge because of the fact we have 12 highway authorities. I can identify roads which would really benefit from the same treatment as Rue de Maupertuis where they become no through roads and priority is given to walkers and cyclists and people who have access to the premises. But you have to persuade the roads committees of those parishes to agree with you. We have one road where we had a representative who uses the road and they thought it was a great idea but it should be open between 7.00 a.m. and 9.00 a.m. for traffic. We were trying to get children to and from school, so it is not as easy as it looks from the outside, I have to say. It is very, very frustrating. There are some areas we could make significant differences to with very little in the way of investment, but you have to take the community with you and those people elected in the areas. So the Roads Committee is 13 highway authorities; we have to work with the other 12.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you, Minister. I will hand over to the Connétable .

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, I will change the subject to sea defences if I may. The consultation on the Havre des Pas Coastal Flood Alleviation Scheme has now closed. Are there any details as to feedback which you can now share with us?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think the feedback is generally supportive of the scheme. I think over 100 people attended the events with 128 questionnaires completed, and soon as those are amalgamated and put into a report we will be sharing that with the public. We added drop in sessions at both St. Saviour parish hall and St. Clement parish hall due to requests for additional sessions. It is a significant scheme. We have some neighbours who do not like the idea of a footpath being near them because at the

moment they have a beach which is lower than them and if you raise a footpath then people will be in line. I think the designs that I have seen have been very sympathetic to that challenge, and I think I said earlier I pay a huge tribute to the officers involved in the work. In general the community has engaged. We have to consider some geological sites, we have historical sites, so there are challenges, but the last slide on the presentation I keep seeing says: "Time and tide wait for no man."

The Connétable of St. Mary :

In terms of engagement, did this include businesses or did businesses come forward with these?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, absolutely. We have held events down at Havre des Pas for residents and businesses alike and we are really keen to hear from businesses. We heard earlier about the impact on businesses when we close a road; if a business gets flooded they are not able to trade generally.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

I think also we were talking earlier about the plan for town and rejuvenating town. That is the town seafront. It is certainly the most sheltered part where you could get sunburnt in February on a good day, and I think it creates a significant opportunity for business down there, to be honest with you.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Now that the consultation has ended can you give us an indicative timetable about taking things forward?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, it is a huge amount of work that has to be done and has been done. So there is modelling that has been done. They have test models in tanks to ensure that is appropriate, and we need to do that before we submit plans because the plans we submit need to be the ones we want to take forward. So in terms of timing I do not think that a planning application will go in until probably quarter 4 2027.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

In terms of funding then it is not within the present budget, or is it?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is funding in the budget to continue works because it is ...

The Connétable of St. Mary :

To continue doing which work? The work as to what needs to be done or ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Yes, so we have officers working on this, and again it is an area where we have to use some external resource because there are specialists in this type of modelling which we have to go out and work with. So we are probably 12 months behind where we would like to be but, yes, there is monies in the fund.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):

Yes, there is monies under the feasibility head of expenditure for the initial planning vote and then in 2029 there is £10 million assigned to shoreline management Havre des Pas. That is the start of a much larger programme.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

So nothing committed to actual work, per se, at the moment?

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport): Well, in 2029 there is £10 million.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Building work I meant, rather than ...

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport): Yes.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, okay. Again going back to our earlier conversation about Investing in Jersey, how will the Havre des Pas scheme or any other major sea defence scheme impact on that? Will the funds come out of Investing in Jersey, or where?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think that is a detail we have got to finalise but clearly it is a major investment for the Island and so how it is funded is going to be key. I do not know if you have seen the maps that identify if we had a worst case scenario; it is quite striking. I am not sure that we understand the extent of it and we have to make sure that the funding is there; whichever bucket it is coming out of, it has got to be there.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

But would it not make sense that it is in the Capital Investment Fund because it is key investment?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I think it is mentioned in that document but it is about ... does all of the funding come from there, how is it funding, and that is ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Well, that is the big question, is it not, that we have?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So as John has alluded to, there is £10 million identified 2029 in the budget process, and hopefully there will be more funds in the investment plan.

Head of Technical Support Services, Projects (Ops and Transport):

I think we still have to understand exactly what the Capital Investment Fund is going to do for us at this point. What we do know is we have got some long-term capital plans that have been developed which cover up to 2040 plus ... 2050 actually, sorry, 25-year capital plans. How those feed in and what the funding mechanisms are for all of those plans, because the ask is considerable and not everything will get funded, but quite what appears on the list and when is some of the detail that we have not got yet.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That is where you would think exactly where the Capital Investment Fund would be going would be in a future waste facility or big infrastructure changes around the shoreline management plan. These are big chunks of money that you need to have that long term ... you were talking about that long- term sustainability and needing long-term lead-in time. These are the things that you need.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

We have provided all of that information, so that information is available.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Changing tack slightly, in our last hearing you affirmed that the inert waste mound at La Collette is intended for use in shoreline management projects. Are you able to advise what cost offset you expect from using this material and what preparation is being made to properly assess both the cost savings and the available capacity?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not have that detail in front of me. The shoreline management plan runs into tens of millions of pounds, over £100 million, and I do not know how that is apportioned, but it makes sense for us to use resource that we have got available to us before we think about having to import any resource to do the works.

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

We do not have those figures in our pack here but basically that is factored in, so the value of the fill material to advance the line, and then the capacity that provides to prolong the life of La Collette is all factored in.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

But, Minister, you mentioned earlier when we were talking about that £3 million shortfall from the waste that because there is that drop in construction waste, for example, that we will need to import to infill the advancing line. Is that something ...

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

So when we are talking about Havre des Pas I do not think that factors in. If you are talking about advancing a line elsewhere then you would have to start thinking about that. Obviously we have got quite a lot of waste at La Collette and so you would be effectively just prolonging the life of that site.

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Okay, I understand.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Some very general questions now. As it is your department's area, what assessments are being made as to how construction of new sea defences might alter sea currents and coastal processes?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Huge, and the modelling goes right from the English Channel down to ... how far south does it go?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

It covers the Bay of Saint-Michel and the Bay of Saint-Malo. It covers the bay and we are also reaching out to colleagues in France to understand what they are doing as well, and through the office in Normandy. But in terms of local coastal processes, that is part of the modelling that the Minister was talking about. We have got a high-level model which does the wave climate and the flows of water, and then there will be much more local models created.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

So what they do is they check the model and they look at images from storms that we have had, and then they are able to measure the model against the actual. I forget the company we work with, what are they called?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

We are working with Accon at the moment and then we will create a physical model, and where that is to be hosted ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is that impacting on that Ramsar site as well so it all fits that in and how it would include ...

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

All that is included. So you start off with the computer models, which is the large-scale models we have talked about, and then for the works themselves and for that area there will be a physical model in a wave tank.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Again, quick question: progress on the catchment flood management plan. Are you confident that the current parties and resourcing are sufficient to meet identified risks?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, there is ongoing work. We have made improvements, we have got further work to do and we do not know what is going to happen tomorrow, but I think we are reasonably confident but not complacent, would be my ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

I think that the last section is Deputy Warr .

Deputy D.J. Warr :

No problem at all. Waste strategy: we have a series of questions here. The vape ban is now in effect. How will you measure the impact of this policy on waste reduction and other product bans or restrictions under consideration?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

We know the levels of vapes that we currently export for recycling. We do not capture all vapes. Clearly, there is some in hedgerows and wherever at the moment. In terms of measuring that, I would imagine we will see a decline in the amount of vapes that are exported, but I would need to ask the officer involved for more detail on that.

[12:15]

In terms of other areas, my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, was recently at a B.I.C. (British-Irish Council) meeting and one of the areas looked at was the scheme that is introduced in Ireland which is around giving money for returns on plastic bottles. I think that is an area that we should look at, as an Island, but I am not sure about the resource implications on that. But the feedback I have read from where it has been introduced has been very positive.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

You previously said a solid waste strategy would be completed by the end of 2025. Will this be published before the end of your term and how will it shape the work of your successor?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I certainly hope it will be published before the end of the term. There is a lot of work which goes into formulating that and clearly their officers will remain the same, regardless of who the Minister is, and the advice would - I suggest - remain the same unless something changes towards that advice. So, yes, I would like to consider that the waste strategy will be there for 10 years.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Thank you. So what progress has been made on the bridging liquid waste strategy? Which projects are on track and which have been delayed or rescoped? Just a reminder, in the panel's 2024 review of the bridging Island waste strategy we recommended and you accepted that an integrated water management plan should be developed or would be developed by the end of 2025. Has that commitment been met?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

There is a huge amount of work being done around that. I do not think we are going to meet the end of the year but I have to say we have worked very hard, the department has worked very hard, to ensure that the liquid waste plan is in place and can be delivered. Part of the budget process has involved some really tough discussions to ensure that we are able to deliver. The work that goes on, which unfortunately causes roadworks and disruption, we have done a lot of work to separate surface water from sewage to ensure that we have got additional capacity for sewage in a lot of areas. I suppose one of the biggest jobs recently was going underneath Victoria Avenue to do that work earlier this year. So, yes, we are confident we are going to deliver the projects to the timescales that we have set.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Okay, thank you. Changing the subject again slightly; the J.E.P. (Jersey Evening Post) reported on Monday that conversations had already started regarding an aerobic digestion plant at La Collette. Minister, can you confirm whether discussions are under way and outline what stage they have reached?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I have had no discussion with Island Energy on that subject. I am aware that we generate power at Bellozanne from the gases we generate at Bellozanne, which almost powers the entire site there and is probably worth close to £500,000 worth of energy, I should think. We also generate energy from the energy from waste plant currently, but I personally have had no discussion with Island Energy on that subject.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Is there space at La Collette that would be able to house such a ... if those discussions were successful is there an area ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I have to apologise but I have no idea how much space would be needed so I could not answer that positively or negatively.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

The energy recovery facility is expected to reach the end of its life by 2036 with replacement costs estimated around £250 million. Do you accept 2035 is the deadline, and in light of external criticism the Government is underestimating the urgency, can you confirm that preparatory work is under way?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I think work is always under way in terms of our assets, so we are continually reviewing how we use our assets and how we maintain our assets and, therefore, the lifespan of those assets. I have every confidence in the team in the department that we are on top of that. In my recent visit to Guernsey at the start of this year, they do not have an energy from waste plant; they export the waste that they generate. We would have to make a decision whether we wanted to repeat what we currently do or change what we do.

Deputy D.J. Warr :

But those discussions are not currently taking place at the moment?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The discussions, as I said, I have every confidence that the team are working hard in terms of ensuring that the lifespan of our existing facility will be as long as possible. I will write to you with the current timelines but I do not ...

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

That will be useful, thank you. Also the replacement cost, because £250 million is a lot of money and we come back to that Capital Investment Fund I mentioned earlier in the sense of trying to work out what goes in that and what does not. It was something that was not mentioned when there was Investing in Jersey. It is not mentioned in there. If it is not mentioned in there but it is a huge amount and is a big capital outlay, that will have to be budgeted for. Where does that sit if you have the money from capital projects going into a Capital Investment Fund, yet this is something that needs to be planned for and has not been mentioned?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

 I do not know if you have been to the energy from waste plant?

Deputy H.L. Jeune : Yes.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a fantastic facility and I will get you an update on its expected lifespan in the next week or so.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Maybe the costs as well and how that is all seen in there ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: We will get an update, yes.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

... within the flow of the future ...

Deputy D.J. Warr :

Do you want to carry on with your next questions?

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes, thank you, Deputy Warr . If I may focus a little bit on speed limit changes, because there has been a number of speed limit changes. In Trinity , St. Peter and St. Brelade , for example, we saw over the summer some Ministerial orders coming through for those different changes. Can the Minister explain a little bit more about the rationale behind those changes and provide an update on the implementation of these orders and if there are more coming? How does the process work?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, it is a process that started in 2016 with the then Minister and the Comité des Connétable s and they have worked their way around the Island. It is interesting that there is a meeting in Grouville tomorrow night, I think it is, to discuss speed limits in Grouville because they were one of the first parishes, the second parish to go through the process, and that was completed in March 2019. I think there has been a significant change in opinion since 2019 within the Grouville community and so we are expecting requests from the parish to change a number of speed limits.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

You mean to reduce even further or to increase?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

I do not think they reduced very many in 2019 in Grouville , but I do think they have identified - and we have certainly identified - areas which would be better suited with a lower speed limit to enable cycling to be a more welcoming pastime. So they have got dialogue going on. We are currently in the process with St. Ouen and then we are due to start again with St. Martin . It is a long, long process. I know in St. John it probably took 4 years to go through and people have forgotten what they said when they start the consultation, because I had people who were very much in favour of reducing speeds who then changed their mind. So it is a long process. Done well it is really good; done badly it is difficult. Speed is one of the top 5 in terms of our collision reduction plan. It is a big issue, speed in Jersey. We hopefully at long last will be assisted by some technology in the near future. We have also recruited recently a road safety officer - I am not sure of the title - to help us with training and education. I am delighted that tyre safety are coming back to the Island and we are doing some work in October with the Jersey Rally on the good, the bad, and the ugly; and that is different tyres. Then later in October we will be monitoring tyres again in some local car parks, which we did last year. So there is a huge amount of work done on that, but in terms of the speed it is one of the key things.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Obviously we can have speed limits but if people do not stick to the speed limits ... unfortunately we had in the last States sitting a number of States Members who questioned ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Quite shocking I thought, some of the comments made in the States.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Yes, I also was very shocked to hear that there was little regard to actual speed limits, and wondering what work you are doing with honoraries and with the police to kind of encourage ... there is the stick and the carrot, but also encouraging ...

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, I can only talk of my experience in my jurisdiction because the Minister for Home Affairs has the responsibility for the policing of roads. So while we are responsible for creating the legislation, it is the Minister for Home Affairs who has the responsibility for the policing. I am aware that we see visitors to the parish hall regularly and in our accounts we show how much has been collected in fines. I would love to see that figure at zero but clearly we collect too much in fines because too many people are speeding.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Do you think the fines should be increased to try to deter further so that speed limits are adhered to?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

That may be a deterrent. I am sure we have all driven over the speed limit and I am relaxed about one and 2 miles over the speed limit. It is the people that have no regard for speed limits. We have a problem right across the Island with people driving far too fast on our roads and we see far too many fatalities and serious injuries on our roads caused by speed. So anything that I or the Minister for Home Affairs can do to reduce that, we are happy to do.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

St. Mary had its own speed change fairly recently as part of that after a long process about reducing speed. Perhaps I could take the opportunity to say it would be helpful if we had more speed cameras, which are quite a big expense. I am wondering if that could be taken on board either by yourself or the Minister for Home Affairs.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Well, currently there are no speed cameras in Jersey.

The Connétable of St. Mary : Not speed ...

The Minister for Infrastructure: The signs, the smiley signs?

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Cameras to record the speed, should I say, because if you go into an area where you are told you are going at 40 miles per hour when it should only be 30, that does encourage people to slow down. That sort of recognition of speed would be useful.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Do we provide any of those, the smileys?

Associate Director, Highways, Transport and Infrastructure:

We seed funded the ... they are called smiling S.I.D. (speed indication devices) but now it is down to the parishes to fund them. We do not have a budget for them but there was a fund back in the day that we were able to avail ourselves of to provide the initial run of them. But that does not exist anymore.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

I will not go into any secrets but we do not have enough in our parish to ... it would help if we had more.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

The good thing about the S.I.D.s is they do not record the registration of the vehicle but they identify the times and speed of vehicles that are going through, so you can then do your enforcement based around the intelligence you gather from those.

The Connétable of St. Mary :

Yes, and also immediately it does impact on the driver concerned if they do not know they are going at that speed.

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It certainly does. We have other people in our community who think we have too many signs and do not want signs, so it is always a question of balance. But I actively support things like the Jersey Rally, the motocross and the Kart Club to enable people to have a go at speed doing their favoured motorsport. That is why I get incredibly frustrated when people race through St. John when we do so much for motorsport. It really annoys me.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you, Minister. Moving to the last subject in the last few minutes, at the last hearing you explained that P.F.A.S. (per and polyfluoroalkyl substances) management at La Collette containment cells and Bellozanne sewage treatment works would be guided by the recommendations of the P.F.A.S. expert panel's third report. This has now been published. Can you explain how you will be responding to its recommendations and what changes are now being planned at La Collette and Bellozanne as a result of this?

The Minister for Infrastructure:

It is a subject which I think is on our agenda tomorrow so perhaps we will write to you with a response.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much. Any other questions?

Deputy D.J. Warr :

I guess one final one, which is on Havre des Pas. We obviously have an ongoing discussion with the charity, or potential charity or whatever, to take over. How do you feel things are progressing on that front?

[12:30]

The Minister for Infrastructure:

Very slowly. I think the deadline is later this week. I understand it is against the law to describe an organisation as a charity if they are not a charity. I am hopeful that we can get things resolved for Friday but I am not involved in the process. I have purposely stayed out of the process and I am hoping I am going to get an update on Friday with a result.

Deputy D.J. Warr : Okay, thank you.

Deputy H.L. Jeune :

Thank you very much, Minister, for taking the time today to answer our questions. There is a number of areas that we will follow up with you on. Thank you, officers, also for your input.

The Minister for Infrastructure: Thank you all.

[12:31]